Nieuport Clerget 110 Series 2 N 4

[JR44]

I got a communication almost a year ago that he was dealing with Alzheimer's disease, but I had no way to confirm its validity. I also have a friend that visited him on a trip to England and said that he looked frail and unwell. His website became inactive as all this was going on, so I'm afraid the situation doesn't look good. He's already been sorely missed, both as a friend as a superb contributor to the forum and the whole knowledge base of early wooden props. I'm fortunate to have all of his books in my library.

Thanks Dave.
That is sad news, my Dad has it, it's a cruel desease.

[Dbahnson]

Any news on Bob?

I got a communication almost a year ago that he was dealing with Alzheimer's disease, but I had no way to confirm its validity. I also have a friend that visited him on a trip to England and said that he looked frail and unwell. His website became inactive as all this was going on, so I'm afraid the situation doesn't look good. He's already been sorely missed, both as a friend as a superb contributor to the forum and the whole knowledge base of early wooden props. I'm fortunate to have all of his books in my library.

[JR44]

Pierre-Michel never ceases to amaze me, as did Bob Gardner while he was able. Thanks, guys.

Any news on Bob?

[Dbahnson]

Pierre-Michel never ceases to amaze me, as did Bob Gardner while he was able. Thanks, guys.

[pmdec]

Hi,

Sorry to be late... And I have not found all the pics I am looking for: they probably are on a disc which I can retrieve only tomorrow or Sunday. For now, I can just tell that your prop was made on 2nd March but for the year it can be 1916 or 1917, probably 1916 because in 1917 the serial and prop numbers were stamped on one side and the codes for plane and engine on the opposite side... BUT I don't know the exact date when this "new" marking geometry was applied (I just know it is at the end of 1916 or the beginning of 1917 ( I never found the mandatory text).

The first known contract date for Eclair selling props to Military is 9/2/1916 (9th February) and was Caudron G3 props, probably the serial 1. Yours is a serial 2 and with a prop number 4, it has to be in the very first made EXCEPT if your prop was made by a subcontractor. So I have to look at some prop picture around 1915/1916 to be sure...

To be continued...

Regards,
PM

[johnnym]

PM and Dave, Thank you once again for all of your assistance!

I have placed Talcum powder in the stamps to make them a little more visible. I believe it we have the following stamps on the flat side of the hub:

2 U sFa U 3

4

The 3 now has become clearer.

The hub depth is 150mm.

As requested:














John

[pmdec]

Hi johnnym,

Ok ! The pics are far better and I will be able to compare the stamps and the letter U with the ones I have on some props. Just give me one or two days to look at this.

In the meantime, could you post a pic of the side with all the markings (just one very fine pic because the places where they are is also important) and one of the digit which could be a 3, a 5 or an 8 (opposite to 2 with respect to SFA stamps on the flat side). It is important because the first Eclair (serial 1) were made in March or April 1916 for the Caudron G3 fitted with a Le Rhone 80HP, then the serial 2 for Nieuport fitted with a Clerget 110 HP. Therefore it is possible your prop was made at the beginning of 1916, even if it has not the right length, but February seems not possible and March very surprising.

With a fine pic of the side with the markings, I will be able to compare the font with those used on first Eclair and at Levasseur factory. I have no use of a scale because the hub height has to be 150 mm (could you check?).

Regards,
PM

[johnnym]

Apologies, I meant it as I have a hub comparison at hand to compare to the Clerget prop. I also can't explain the metal cover. However, I can tell it's been for a very long time.

[Dbahnson]

I also have one of Bob's old Sopwith Camel props that has a hub:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...cd5bd2d1_k.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ed1f4344_k.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...f77a8aab_c.jpg

I think that's a totally different shape than yours. So many props look similar but turn out to be completely different

[johnnym]

I also have one of Bob's old Sopwith Camel props that has a hub:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...cd5bd2d1_k.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ed1f4344_k.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...f77a8aab_c.jpg

[johnnym]

Apologies for the first set of poor photos. Perhaps these closeups will be of more help.

[Dbahnson]

I'm trying to understand how the metal plate shown sitting on the wooden hub fits in with the normal metal hub assembly on an engine like the Clerget.



52614735251_7d5f48634c_k.jpg52615033956_16b6ffdc07_k.jpg

[pmdec]

I didn't realize that the metal plate sat on top of the hub surface, but the newer photos show that to be the case, so I agree that it doesn't appear to have been cut out or a clock, but I also doubt that it was part of the hub assembly for a Clerget engine.

Hi Dave,

It seems that there was a metal plate the size of the central hole on one side and a wooden disc the size of the hub on the other side.

Here is a metallic hub on a Gnome :
moyeux.jpg

It was the same on Clerget. Here, a 130 HP : http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/v98C7...0(0103-91).jpg

Best regards and best New Year wishes for you and all the ones you care to!
PM

[Dbahnson]

I didn't realize that the metal plate sat on top of the hub surface, but the newer photos show that to be the case, so I agree that it doesn't appear to have been cut out or a clock, but I also doubt that it was part of the hub assembly for a Clerget engine.

[pmdec]

Hi,

Sorry but I can't see any detail in the SFA stamps: the pics are much too blur. Perhaps there is a setting for close-ups? I suspect you use an iPad... The standard settings on Apple phones made big pics but they are pixel mush! If you can, have the right settings for fine pics or use a true camera.

About the length, it is very surprising: more than 3 cm too long. It would not pass the controls ... but there are the airworthy stamps, so???

"Could the number "4" be a serial #?" No. It is a repetition of the prop number, used along the making. The two other (2 and ? (3 or 5 or 8?)) from either side of the SFAs (there are two in this place, one on the other but the two U are visible) are a date (2nd of March) but there is no year!

"I don't believe the screwed on "rear" metal plate was to cover a clock hole. Could it have been part of the hub assembly?" No.
And, yes, the hub is in its original state. The central hole have to be 70mm in diameter (2" 3/4) and the bolt holes 11.5mm (29/64).

In conclusion, it could be a very early Eclair, the military control made at Levasseur factory or by the man who habitualy worked there (until now, the U letter after the stamp was specific of Levasseur propellers and seen only on those). To be sure, we have to look at a fine close-up of all the SFA stamps and the digit other than the 2 on the flat size to know if it is possibly a very early Eclair.

Regards,
PM