Heine propeller

[Garuda]

Garuda propeller details

Hi PM,

You're very welcome!

I did not intend to hijack the original thread. It is titled Heine propeller, but here we are talking about Garuda propellers!

I did not know that you also had an original Garuda propeller. As you have probably noticed from my photos my Garuda propeller is serial number 21333. Being fewer than 500 serial numbers later than mine I would be very interested to hear more details regarding your Garuda propeller. Do you know which type of aircraft it was fitted to? Your comments regarding the base colour of silver or white are very interesting, and concur with my assumption. From Dave's photos it seems that the correct colour of the winged cup (or is it a shield) is silver. The gold colour visible over part of the winged cup or shield on my propeller could be explained by yellowing varnish. Were transfers applied over the varnish, or were they sometimes varnished? I will have a look at the transfers and other parts of the propeller under magnification, in an attempt to resolve some of these questions. Regarding Bob's e-book on German propellers, I provided some information and photographs relating to my Garuda propeller. In return he very generously sent me a copy of his German propeller e-book. If I can find it I will be able to provide further information regarding Garuda propellers.

Regarding the Kontr stamps, I don't recall seeing any at all on my propeller. I will have another look, and let you know if I am able to find any similar stamps. I'm sure that you're right, they are some sort of control marking.

Dave, thank you very much for posting the photos Bob sent you. These Garuda logos are in much better condition than mine are.

I constructed a jig for the purpose of measuring my Garuda propeller. In more recent years I have been measuring components from an original T.6296 propeller. I had access to a blade and have more recently found some dimensions relating to the hub on this site, and a complete original propeller here in Australia which I will measure.

I will start a new thread for each propeller, the T.6296 and the Garuda Fokker E.V / D.VIII propeller.

Best Regards,

David.

[Dbahnson]

Here are photos that Bob sent me in the past:

[pmdec]

Hi David,

Many thanks for your detailled answers.

I have not the book, but there have to be at least an original decal in one of the Bob's books about German props.
The Garuda prop I have seems to have its decals in original state but I can't be sure, having only just one Garuda prop (it is the number 21815). On the one I have, the decal seems to have three "colors": red, white and silver (silver for the name GARUDA and the border line), but worn decals always show white or silver because it is the "base" layer.

About the "kontr" markings, I think they are control marks stamped along the prop making process. Once again, this is perhaps explained in Bob's books but I have only his books about English props, being not much intersested by German ones...
I asked the question about their number because on my Garuda there is a chipping in the wood which perhaps hides a third.

Best regards,
PM

[Garuda]

Marks on timber and original finish

Here are some more photos I took. I have attempted to show the marks on the rear of the propeller blades. They are extremely difficult to photograph, but hopefully you will be able to see them. Interestingly, one of the apparent toothing plane marks covers a defect in the timber. The defect appears to have caught by the toothing plane, of in fact that is what left the marks, and has been gouged out of the timber. This particular Garuda propeller was fitted to a Fokker E.V / D.VIII. It is safe to assume that by this time quality control was not a very high priority.

[Garuda]

Garuda transfers and mark

Hi PM,

I have had a close look at the Garuda transfers. The front of the propeller is in much worse condition than the rear of the propeller. The decals have also suffered from age related damage, as you will see in the photos. Presumably the propeller has been stored for many decades with the front face exposed to sunlight. The collector / researcher (who was also a friend) I bought it from had it hanging in his study. From memory of the manner in which it was mounted, I am sure that it would have only been exposed to minute amounts of indirect sunlight, so the damage probably occurred many decades previously.

As a result of the damage, it is extremely difficult to answer your question. The varnish appears to have been mostly washed off by some sort of solvent. On the rear the varnish, although showing it’s age more or less covers the entire surface of the rear of the propeller. I believe the “washed off” appearance of the front of the propeller is due to prolonged exposure to sunlight, and / or heat. If I had to guess, I would say that the Garuda transfers appear to have been applied over the varnish, but it really is almost impossible to determine the order of application. I have taken some photographs at oblique angles, to try to highlight the contrast between the transfers and the varnish to the maximum extent.

What are the “kontr” marks you referred to? Presumably you are asking about contour marks. Are you referring to the stamps on the hub?

PS, it has been quite some time since I have studied this propeller but I recall now that a second possibility is that the varnish might have been applied over the transfer. If so, this accounts for the goldish appearance of the transfers in places. Consequently, I have a question for members of the forum. Is the colour of the winged cup Garuda logo known? If it was silver, it is indicative that the transfers were varnished. If the Garuda logo is known to have been gold, the mixture of colours could be explained by the gold having partially fallen off the propeller due to less than ideal storage conditions over a period of many decades. The silver could have been a base colour.

I look forward to further advice.

Regards,

David.

[pmdec]

Hi Garuda,

Just two more questions about your prop:
- are the decals on the varnish or the varnish on the decals? Could you post a pic?
- how many "kontr" marks are on the flat side of the hub?

Thank you by advance,
PM

[Garuda]

Silver lettering on original Garuda propeller

Hi Dave and pmdec,

Yea it is a reproduction propeller. I was not able to work out how to make the photo larger but I know that Achim uses gold lettering on his reproduction propellers. His research is meticulous. I’m sure that I have seen quite a few photographs of original German propellers with gold highlighted letters. When I bought my original Garuda propeller I was very surprised to find that the stamped letters had been highlighted with silver paint. Like you Dave, I assumed that the silver highlighting was not original. Subsequent research indicates that this was in fact common practice for German propellers. I don’t think I have seen any other examples of silver highlighting but gold highlighting seems to have been very common. I will see if I can find more photos.

I was able to get some good photos of the silver highlighting on my original Garuda propeller. I was not able to find the long mark I mentioned previously but I was clearly able to see what look to me like marks which were made by a toothing plane. They are very difficult, if not impossible to photograph, but I will see if I can get some good photos of them. Propellers and other components produced during war time were not always perfectly finished.

Regards,

David.

[pmdec]

Hi,

Just my two cents, but
- it is very unlikely that any prop left a factory in non perfect state. In France, props with extremely light scratch were repaired, and a prop with a litlle scratch would not be accepted. I supposed it was the same in England or in Germany.
- if lettering used different "paint" that the "global" one of the prop, it would be visible on some pictures: I will not believe in gold (or white, or silver) lettering until seing an old pic where the markings are visible (if not legible)...

Regards,
PM

[Dbahnson]

Gold lettering stamped into reproduction Axial propeller.

But that's a reproduction propeller. I don't recall ever seeing it in an original early propeller, at least one in original condition. People have used lettering fill to emphasize the markings, but as far as I know that's an alteration, not a factory technique.

[Garuda]

Achim Engels reproduction Axial propeller stamps gold lettering

Gold lettering stamped into reproduction Axial propeller.

[Garuda]

Gold paint

Any time I see gold or white lettering I just assume that has been done by a subsequent owner, not the factory or any mechanics.

I have an original Garuda propeller which has silver paint which fills the stamped letters. It is in original condition. It has never been restored or refinished. I can even see marks which were either left by a tooth of a toothing plane, or more likely a nick in the blade of a draw knife. This mark was not sanded before the propeller left the factory. Achim Engels uses gold paint for his reproduction Axial propeller stamps and I'm sure I have studied original German propellers which have gold paint. I will see if I can find some photos.

[Dbahnson]

What’s strange is that the lettering contains gold paint.
Is this common?

Any time I see gold or white lettering I just assume that has been done by a subsequent owner, not the factory or any mechanics.

[Geertse]

Heine

It’s a long time ago. But now seeing the topic I’ll remember it.
It’s indeed almost the same data on it.
The other one must have been sold to another person
Never heard of it again.
Now I was just looking for a propeller who’s smaller than 255cm for hanging on a wall and I came across this one.
It must be a coincidence that it was the same data because this one is shortened to 251cm.
Thxs a lot for all the info!!!!
Greetings,
Geert

[Mtskull]

All of the specifications and markings on your propeller (apart from serial number, which is consistent with the same era) match exactly with one which was positively identified by Bob Gardner on this forum in 2014.
You may remember that you were interested in buying it?

Therefore, I can say with certainty that your propeller is from:

Aircraft: Fokker DR. 1
Date: 1917 or 1918

[Geertse]

Heine

I have been looking with a magnifying glass and the data can be read as
110 PS
RHONE
D263
H222
HEINE
N27688
Waidmannlust
Berlin
What’s strange is that the lettering contains gold paint.
Is this common?
Greetings
Geert
I would be very gratefull if someone could determine the airplane this was used on and also the date of the propeller