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Old 12-01-2007, 11:08 AM   #11
pmdec
 
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Hello,

Thank you very very much for the Rapid decal : it's the first time I see a very detailed one : the only Rapid propeller I have has been modified in a Ratier one (wood has been carved around the place "Rapid" was and replace by a Ratier) :


Infortunately, I live in the center of France (near Figeac were is Ratier-Figeac which is today the name of Ratier. It's a member of Hamilton Sundstrand), and I will be in Montpellier all the week.

We are working on a new edition of the book "La Maison Ratier", probably for 2009. When I said we don't sell the book, I mean it is not possible to buy it : we made it for people working for Ratier and for retired ones. We have some for trade, but not so much !

SHAM means "Société des Hélices Armées et Matricées". I think it is a trademark from De La Grandville who made plyboard construction propeller duraing WW1.
There is a very interesting paper in Aeronautical Engineering (Supplement to The Aeroplane) october 29, 1919, p. 1537 to 1540.

TONKILAQUE is a trademark of S.E.L.T. (I think this means Société d'Exploitation des Laques du Tonkin). They made the "laque" coat on the propellers.

I'm now in a hurry and I'll come back later.
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Old 12-01-2007, 11:47 AM   #12
Bob Gardner
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Thank you for this excellent photograph, which I will use in Volume 3 of my book, if I may? I would much appreciate any help from you, or the Company of Hamilton-Ratier, in describing Ratier props in my book.

Dave Bahnson, founder of this forum, will be interested in your description of SHAM and SELT. We have long tried to identify them.

Vous pouvez E-mail je si vous souhaitez en utilisant la boîte de E-mail, ci-dessous et légèrement à gauche, au fond de ce message.

Avec le respect,

Bob
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Old 12-01-2007, 11:54 PM   #13
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For the "decal" photo, I prefer you use this one (I will send you good quality photos by mail next week-end***), as the one posted above is very atypical :


It is from a propeller Serial 34 for Breguet XIV A2 with Renault 300 HP engine. You can use the photo free of charge in your book, but you'll have to indicate the propeller is the property of "Association des Amis du Musée Paulin Ratier" and the name of the photograph (I'll give it in the mail).
In my turn, I hope we'll have the permission to use the photo of Rapid decal in our book (with museum and photographer names). If you give me the serial letter and the number in the serial, there is a good chance I can tell you the buyer name and when it was sold. It is a very very rare object !!! I think most of them had been destroyed during WW1.

*** I have to make it, as the ones posted are just for inventory purpose. If you want other views of this propeller, tell me what you need.

And, please, don't forget the original purpose of this post (identification of a propeller found in association stock and erroneously (99.99% !) marked as Ratier) ...
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Old 12-02-2007, 07:14 AM   #14
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Some more thoughts on Breguet props.

I bought a Breguet 14 prop from France about three years ago. Sadly I have no photographs of it, although I have records of almost all my props. I believe it was a Ratier prop. The data was;

Serie 1010
Diameter; 2930mm
Pitch;
Engine; 300hp Renault

My description of it on my website was;
"This large prop dates from 1917-1918 and was made by Ratier for the 300 hp Renault engine which powered the Bréguet 14, used in large numbers by the French. A total of 5500 were made during WW1 and equipped 55 French Squadrons as well several Belgian squadrons. 290 were purchased by America.

There were two versions of the Breguet 14 during WW1. The B2 was a day-bomber used in large numbers. The A2 was a recce aircraft used by the Corps d’Armée for tactical reconnaissance. This prop is from the A2 version, is made of beech and is in restored condition. The leading edge tips are protected by duralumin which was also used in the construction of the airframe, the first example of its use in aircraft."

I have also seen a French military prop made by Heine of Berlin who became a dominant European maker in the late 1920's. It too was made of a light coloured wood, Beech I think. It too had duralumin leading edge.

With regards,

Bob
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Old 12-02-2007, 07:39 AM   #15
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Thank you for permission to use the photograph.

My photograph was taken by me, Bob Gardner. My company trades as 'Aeroclocks.' You are most welcome to use them.

The propeller is owned by the Museum of Flight in Scotland. I shall ask them for the details on the hub. I suspect that there weren't any or I would have photographed them. If there is any data, they will be most interested to know to whom the propeller was originally sold. Neither they nor me knew anything about 'Rapid' propellers. We both thought it was English because of the spelling. If you send me an e-mail using the box below, I will be able to copy the correspondence to you.

If you let me have your address, I will send you a copy of the first two volumes of my book. It is in pdf format on a CD. Volume I describes the propellers of all the warring nations of World War 1 and much of the description of the origin of French propellers describes the work of Lucien Chauvière. If I should add some words about 'Rapid' perhaps you could tell me. I certainly would appreciate some input about both Rapid and Ratier for Volme 3 which will describe French makers in some detial. I am only just beginning to research and write this volume. I hope you will send me a copy of your book or the description of Rapid and Ratier up to about 1920

I should have said earlier that your English is magnifique

Avec le regard,

Bob
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Old 12-02-2007, 11:47 AM   #16
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Hello,

I have sent you a mp message.

For your Breguet XIV propeller, are you sure of the digits ?

Serie 1010
Diameter; 2930mm
Pitch;
Engine; 300hp Renault


The Ratier serie 1010 is a metallic propeller for Farman 235.

Ratier made many serial for Breguet XIV using different engines (Renault, Fiat, Lorraine, Liberty, ...) in power range from 220HP to 450 HP, from 1916 to 1925.
The first serial is a two digits. It's difficult to know the actual first serial as the plane type is not always indicated on the billing pages, and when indicated, it may be confusing (military habits ? ).
The last serial made for this plane is 271 in 1925 (with a 400HP Lorraine 12DB engine).
Serial 270 is for a Renault 300 HP 12 Fe. It is 3.00 meters and has a pitch of 1.63. But it don't seem to have been sold.

BUT : we haven't finished the readings of serial 101 to 225. It's a very long work because some pages are extremely difficult to read (the ink had vanished). We have to verify with army archives that are in Paris. This work have been done by Jean Devaux for the 1 to 100 series, but, as you know, this "expert" is dead and we have to continue the work by ourselves ...

Best regards,
PM
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Old 12-02-2007, 01:56 PM   #17
Bob Gardner
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Bonjour PM,

Thank you for your latest message. This expert is still alive and intends to remain so but I agree that military habits can confuse civilians.

The data in my last post is what I have recorded. I am not able to check it as the prop has sold. Perhaps it is Serie Numero 101 The British often produced a drawing numbner such as the AB 66 series for large engines, where another digit indicated each type of engine so that AB664 was a Rolls Royce Eagle engine for a HP O/400 bomber and AB 665 was for a similar engine in the Curtiss Flying Boat.

Did Ratier do the same thing, so that Ser No 1010 was the first type of Ser No 101?

No MP message has arrived yet.

Avec Salutation,

Bob
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Old 12-02-2007, 09:28 PM   #18
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Hello,

First, I regret to to have to confirm the death of Jean Devaux, a month ago ... A very great loss for the aviation community.

For what I know about Ratier serial numerotation, each new propeller had a specific number. This number is obtain very simply by adding 1 to the precedent number ! Occasionally, they prefered adding "bis" to an ancient number when a modification was made (for example there are "Série 7" and "Série 7bis", with very little differences in the shape). I don't know why they used this "bis" sytem. Perhaps they did it when the "old" serial was well knowned and in use.
In each serial, the propellers where numbered, apparently from number 1, adding 1 with each new propeller made in the serial.

Therefore, the marks read (for example):
Série 7 bis
N° 112

It may be sufficient to know when the propeller was made and some other informations. But there are also on the propellers others marks (abbreviations for type of aircraft and/or type of engine) and some others which are not so clear.

As for the Rapid propellers, I join two photos about them : an old postcard of Vedrines' Deperdussin and a copy of a factory card from the time when Paulin Ratier was associated with B. Montet (who make the design and have the name "Rapid" registred) in making propeller in his first factory in Malakoff (near Paris).
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Old 12-03-2007, 08:26 AM   #19
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Dear Pierre-Michel,

Thank you for this information. The postcard of the Deperdussin is excellent. The business card of M. Ratier is also most valuable. I already had a poor photograph of this card, which was not good enough to use in my book. In addition, I had not made a connection between the reference at the top to Rapid Propellers and the Rapid propeller that I had seen at the Museum of Flight in Scotland.

I am about to e-mail the museum and will copy the e-mail to you. I'll publish any interesting information that I discover, here.

Bob
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:07 AM   #20
pmdec
 
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Hello !

I think I have found an answer about the origin of the Série 41 prop (first post in this topic) :
It would be a Bréguet propeller. In 20's, Bréguet and Ratier were in connection : Ratier made his own propellers, but, also, propellers under Bréguet license . From 1920 to 1925, very few were made, but more were made between 1926 and 1930. Sometimes the serial 41 propellers were all Ratier made (and sold to STIAé, about 1400 Francs each), and sometimes Ratier sold to Bréguet the "bloc" assembly (about 450 Francs) and Bréguet had to finish the work.

It was the same with serial 42 (Bréguet 19B2 with 480HP engine).
They have both a shape quite different from Ratier, and 10 bolts vs 8.

After mid 1929, there is no more Bréguet wooden propeller, nor "bloc", manufactured by Ratier : it is the time when metallic is taking on wood production. Ratier had plenty of work (after in flight variable pitch patent) and Bréguet had to made his own "blocs" or ask another manufacturer. If this very propeller (n°612) is trully from 1930/5/17, it was all manufactured by Bréguet (or : "bloc" by another manufacturer than Ratier and finished by Bréguet).

Preserved 1927 bills copies clearly show Bréguet serial 41 is for Bréguet B19 A2 with Lorraine 400CV, and a 20' Ratier add show both Ratier and Bréguet propellers side to side : 10 vs 8 bolts are clearly visible and the Bréguet shape is the same as shown in first post of this topic.

So, it appears now this propeller is not a first war product ! Perhaps the topic as to be moved on another section ? But what to do with the meddle part ?
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