My propeller identification

[Alexandru C.]

Greetings to all. This is my first post on this forum.
A few words for the beginning. My grandfather was fighter pilot in the Romanian Royal Air Force. He died in 1936 as a result of a plane crash. From him we have the half of a propeller. Please help me to identify what type it is and from what plane is, if it is possible.
Few pictures attached
The length (the half part) - 120 cm
The central hub - 58 mm
Many thanks,
Alexandru Creteanu

[Dave]

Well, it certainly looks like a Levasseur decal, although I'm not sure it's exactly the same as this one.

The "Tonkilaque S.E.L.T." decals is the same as one on this Salmson propeller.






It may not be possible to identify it without the design (or "drawing") number stamped on it.

[pmdec]

Hi,

Your prop was made by Levasseur, a French propeller maker (see http://woodenpropeller.com/levasseur2.jpg for the decal with a blue P and a red L for Pierre Levasseur).
The small blue decal which read TONKILAQUE S.E.L.T. is the one of the people who made the lacquer (the black "varnish").
From your last picture, it was made around 1925 and has airworthy French stamps.
For perhaps more info, you have to post a clear close-up picture of the two flat sides and the two round sides of the hub (=4 pictures). There are possibly enough remains of markings to get the aircraft. Make them as large as possible (if you can't post them directly, send them to me by mail (pmdecombeix at yahoo dot com) and I will post them from a server).

Regards,
PM

Sorry, Dave, you post while I was writing!

[Alexandru C.]

Thanks for the answers! I'll be back with pictures as soon as possible.
Regards,
Alexandru

[Alexandru C.]

Hi,
Here are 3 pics with the round sides. In "pic 2" I can see the letters " N O" and below an "R". Unfortunately the opposite side, "pic 3", looks like it was damaged and replaced a portion of wood. On the flat side which is near the engine I can see only 2 studs holes (not 3). I will send few pictures by email.
The elliptical shape hole on the blade is specific to a certain type of aircraft?
Regards, and

Happy new year to all!
Alexandru

[Dave]

I think the elliptical hole was created as a photo frame. It would have an adverse aerodynamic function, like a hole through a wing.

[pmdec]

Hi,

From pic of flat side of the hub and data writen by Alexandru, this French Levasseur propeller was made in the year 1925:
- From 1922/1923 to WW2, the date pattern on French Levasseur propellers is [stamp] dd [stamp] mm [stamp] yy [stamp] with, for some periods, a stamp above the "mm", but with only 2 or 3 stamps for other periods. On this one, the "25" is clearly the "yy", so 1925.
- The "31" are the two first digits of the prop number, which is consistent with the year 1925 (Levasseur props n°31xxx were made between March 1925 and October 1926).

"NO" have to be the two first letters of the aircraft code and "R", the first letter of the engine code.
I am sorry but it seems there is not any French aircraft from the 20's era consistent with those writings. At least, I didn't find one. For other countries aircrafts, the research could be very long, without be sure to eventually find it...

Regards,
PM

[Alexandru C.]

Many thanks for the detailed answers! Another pic attached. In the hexagonal stamp seem to be the letters "AE" (making common body). Can you tell what the symbol means?
Regards,
Alexandru

[pmdec]

Hi Alexandru,

The letters inside the stamp are there to identify who inspected the propeller (about airworthiness). I don't know any way to find more information from them, excepted about the consistency of the markings: Yours are not questionable!

Regards,
PM

[Alexandru C.]

The fact that the hub has only 6 bolts lead to a light aircraft, or not necessarily? I will try to identify the types of aircraft that existed in the period in Romania.
Regards,
Alexandru

[Dave]

I think it had 8 bolts.

[pmdec]

Hi,

Me too (8 bolts). A way to narrow the search is to measure diameter and pitch.

PM

[Alexandru C.]

Hi,
I have news . Yes, you are right it has 8 bolts. Searching in the history of the Romanian aviation and comparing pictures, the Morane Saulnier 35 propeller looks like very much with this. MS 35 has been used in that period (aprox 1925), and also produced under license in Romania, starting with 1927.
MS 35 had Levasseur propeller, could be MS 35?
Many thanks,
Alexandru

[Dave]

Be very careful about drawing conclusions on appearance comparisons. Propellers were like tires - very similar appearances with hundreds of different applications, and rarely interchangeable without adverse effects.

[pmdec]

Hi,

Attested facts: the prop is clearly made and approved for airworthiness in France, and made in 1925.
So, if it was found in Romania, the prop could have came there on an aircraft bought from France (so a French one) ... or on a French aircraft "passing by" Romania (so, for any existing aircraft at this time used in France: I don't know if a list exist somewhere, therefore you have to search all existing aircrafts!).

The aircraft code seems to be NO... and the engine code R... The French way on approved propellers is to code the aircraft name with the three first letters of the name, same with two or three letters for the engine.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_%28N%29), there is a lot of aircafts with NO as the first two letters:
Noin
Noorduyn
Nord Aviation (see SNCAN)
Norman Aviation
Norman Thompson
Norris
North American Aviation
North American Rotorwerks
North Wing Design
Northeast
Northern
Northrop Corporation
Northrup (Russell Northrup/Northrop and James R Williams, Rochester NY.)
Northwest
Northwest Polytechnic University
Northwood
Notteghem
Nourse
Novaer Craft
Novitchi
Nozawa

Then, you have to check each brand for existing aircrafts before 1926, and for each one you have to look for the engine fitted on... Only if you don't find any possibility, you can consider "NO" is perhaps "MO"... and start the same thing on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_%28M%29

Perhaps, at the end, the only choice will be Morane-Saulnier. Perhaps!

And then, there will be another choice: there were Morane with Renault ("Re" or "Ren" on propellers) engine (just one, with a 450HP) and 13 with Le Rhône ("Rh" on propellers) engines (from 80 to 120HP).

MS 35 (airworthy authority number, which is model AR (or AS?) for Morane, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morane-Saulnier_MoS-35), which was fitted with a 80HP Le Rhône 9C is a possibility. Just a possibility. If you measure the propeller diameter and pitch, may be you will be able to narrow it...

PM