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-   -   Integral vs. Integrale (http://woodenpropeller.com/forumvB/showthread.php?t=75)

Grovetown 05-15-2006 05:53 PM

Integral vs. Integrale
 
Dear Dave and Bob

I'm getting a bit confused by the seemingly interchangeable use of Integrale and Integral when describing Chauviere and IPC props.

I'm familiar, perhaps obviously, with Chauviere and his Integrale business - but why refer to IPC items as Integrale; when the decals plainly show Integral (no 'e') and the company was based in Hendon, North of London?

I assume the obvious answer is that IPC (GB) was a wholly-owned subsidiary of Integrale (France); and I'd be grateful for confirmation.

You may also be interested in the following links. They are early Patents for Lucien Chauviere (1908/ 1910) that I found while trying to get to the bottom of this myself.

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=E...B191106167&F=0

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=E...B190927545&F=0

He has a couple more in there too if you do a (quick) search for Chauviere under 'people and organisations'.

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

Dave 05-15-2006 10:14 PM

I've always assumed, as I think you have, that one is just the Anglicized version of the other. They probably should not be used interchangeably as they are, but it's easy to slip up.

To add to the confusion, some of the modern propellers built by American manufacturers use "integral" to describe the large hub/spinner combination built into the prop.

Bob Gardner 05-16-2006 07:00 AM

Hi Grovetown,

Firstly some statements about Chauviere for other readers. He was French and a part of the birth of aviation in Europe which began in 1906, proceeded slowly until 1908 and then blossomed amazingly, so that only ten years later aircraft had evolved into fighters, bombers and passenger aircraft. It was an astonishing time. The first one kilometre flight in Europe took place in 1908. Eight years later in 1916 massed groups of German Gotha bombers were able to bomb London. Only three years after that a British bomber made the first direct flight across the Atlantic.

To return to Chauviere, his interest lay in propellers and he became the first specialist maker of propellers. Until 1908, if you wanted to fly, you bought your own complete aircraft or you built your own. In either case the propeller would have been carved by hand for that aircraft.

As several aircraft types and engines became available, Chauviere set up his own company to sell propellers. In France it was called the Societe Integrale Chauviere et Cie. He soon set up subsidiary companies in Britain and Germany. The British Company was The Integral Propeller Company. It produced props with serial numbers which began IPC, so that a DH2 prop was an IPC70. Often makers omitted the identification letters so this prop might also be marked just 70. You have to be a detective if you study WW1 props.

The French decal was marked INTEGRALE BSDGD PATENT DRP and had a wing in the centre surrounded by an elaborate 'C' for Chauviere.

The English version was marked INTEGRAL PROPELLER Co LTD and without a 'C' around the wing.

On British Integral props the centre of the decal design varied considerably. The wing was often absent and replaced by Chauviere's full signature, sometimes with nothing at all and sometimes a reference for whom it was made; for example 'Made for the Grahame-White Aeroplane Co'

As for how these props were referred to in colloquial speech at the time, I do not know. When I refer to them, I call the French made prop a 'Chauviere,' when I refer to the English prop, 'Integral' and when I refer to an Integral Prop Co drawing no, I call it an 'IPC number.' I might have picked this up from contemporary accounts.

With regards,

Bob

Grovetown 05-16-2006 08:48 AM

Thanks chaps for the answers - and particularly Bob for the most comprehensive one.

With respect Bob, there are examples of mixed and matched IPC/ Integrale on Aero Clocks (the Graham White is an example). :)

To illustrate your IPC 70 point, here's an example of the same:

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h9...ubmarking2.jpg

Thanks once and best wishes,

Grovetown.

Dave 05-16-2006 10:30 AM

Here are a few of the varied decals:

http://www.woodenpropeller.com/anzdec.jpg

http://www.woodenpropeller.com/DEdec.jpg

http://www.woodenpropeller.com/Niedec.jpg

http://i13.ebayimg.com/01/i/07/1a/11/ff_12_sb.JPG

Similar, but certainly not identical. I'm sure there are other variations as well.

Bob Gardner 05-16-2006 01:53 PM

Hi Grovetown,

Yes I plead guilty to being confused. It takes a great deal of effort to get my three remaining brain cells working.

The marking on your prop for 'DH2' is interesting. Until now I thought that all WW1 AIRCO props were marked, for example, 'De H2' (sometimes 'DE H2')and that the prefix 'DH' came into use post WW1.

However, I often see mistakes in the stampings. My 'De H6' prop is stamped for a Diameter of 1520mm instead of the correct 2520mm.

Sometimes a variety of different names were used for one thing; for example I have seen the aero-engine eventually called the Siddeley Puma called, all correctly;

BHP (Beardmore-Halford-Pullinger)
Galloway 200hp BHP
Siddeley 200hp BHP
Siddeley Deasy 200hp BHP
Siddeley Deasy 200hp
Siddeley Deasy Puma
Siddeley Puma

Now I'm off to track down my errant Integrals and Integrales!

With best wishes,

Bob

Grovetown 05-16-2006 04:16 PM

Hi Bob

That is a 1917 example - other hub marking below.

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h9...ubmarking1.jpg

Dave 05-16-2006 04:43 PM

That hub looks like it's in great shape. Can we see a picture of the whole prop?

And while we're on the subject of DE H props, did you see this post from earlier in the week? I've got to believe a DH3 propeller is rare as hell.

Grovetown 05-17-2006 11:50 AM

Here you go Dave....

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h9...DH2length2.jpg

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

Dave 05-17-2006 11:53 AM

Thanks. That's a beauty. The metal sheathing is unusual for that era.

You may have seen this, but here's a link to a DH1 propeller that I have.


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